From f3a79276f5a6c7b70b1ab4b7ef9406df811cd5da Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: "ai-transcriber[bot]" <182107790+ai-transcriber[bot]@users.noreply.github.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2026 08:11:07 +0000 Subject: [PATCH 1/3] ai(transcript): "Building a pure silent payment mobile wallet: challenges and hindsight" (bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition) --- .../deepgram_2026-06-26T080833Z.json | 39067 ++++++++++++++++ .../dpe.json | 26035 ++++++++++ .../metadata_2026-06-26T080541Z.json | 31 + 3 files changed, 65133 insertions(+) create mode 100644 bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/building-a-pure-silent-payment-mobile-wallet-challenges-and-hindsight/deepgram_2026-06-26T080833Z.json create mode 100644 bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/building-a-pure-silent-payment-mobile-wallet-challenges-and-hindsight/dpe.json create mode 100644 bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/building-a-pure-silent-payment-mobile-wallet-challenges-and-hindsight/metadata_2026-06-26T080541Z.json diff --git a/bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/building-a-pure-silent-payment-mobile-wallet-challenges-and-hindsight/deepgram_2026-06-26T080833Z.json b/bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/building-a-pure-silent-payment-mobile-wallet-challenges-and-hindsight/deepgram_2026-06-26T080833Z.json new file mode 100644 index 0000000..79d266e --- /dev/null +++ b/bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/building-a-pure-silent-payment-mobile-wallet-challenges-and-hindsight/deepgram_2026-06-26T080833Z.json @@ -0,0 +1,39067 @@ +{ + "metadata": { + "transaction_key": "deprecated", + "request_id": "019f02f8-ec7e-78c0-9597-5ca0e2781add", + "sha256": "716c2229330228c1b3d1bd674b94f1d4bbcfbcb346cb1c3d999cb0f2a2ae7607", + "created": "2026-06-26T08:08:15.758Z", + "duration": 1693.8058, + "channels": 1, + "models": [ + "2a000f0d-afa1-4f20-8481-94f8bc30b0b2" + ], + "model_info": { + "2a000f0d-afa1-4f20-8481-94f8bc30b0b2": { + "name": "large-whisper", + "version": "2022-12-08.0", + "arch": "whisper" + } + } + }, + "results": { + "channels": [ + { + "alternatives": [ + { + "transcript": "All right, yes, so hello everyone. My name is Cygnet and for the last two years or so I've been interested in sign-in payments. I think it's going to sort of nerd slide me for like two years now. More specifically, me together with Sofstein, we have been working on a specific type of sign and payments wallet, which we call, I guess, a sovereign sign and payments wallet. So yeah, I'm going to talk about that, but before I'm talking about my wallet and to give you a good idea of why it's sovereign, I think it's first important to give a quick overview of what sign-on payments itself actually is. To understand sign-on payments, we first need to talk about the problem that sign-on payments is trying to solve, which is address reuse. So I'm sure I don't really need to tell the people in this audience that address reuse is something that you generally should be trying to avoid. This was known basically from day one, I think, technically even before day one, because it was in the white paper that you should not reuse keys. You know, for privacy concerns. But despite that, address reuse is actually super prevalent. So here are just two examples that I screenshotted. So the one on the left here is the donation space for GrapheneOS. Now GrapheneOS is obviously a very privacy-conscious project, so you would imagine that they care a lot about privacy, yet they even on their donation page, they use this single, you know, like just normal hard-coded Bitcoin address, And of course, if you can essentially everyone can just look this up and they can kind of see what, you know, how many people have sent funds to them. So that's one example of, you know, like people using or people often like still doing address reuse. Another example is Bitcoin exchanges. So to the right is a screen shot of a Bitcoin exchange. For exchanges, it's generally just more user convenience. So if you want to withdraw, especially in Europe, it's sort of starting to become customary that you have to verify the addresses that you own, and that is because impartially it's for compliance reasons but it's also just more convenient. Like if I'm a user, I want to be like sort of good, have good privacy, you kind of just need to, like, verify an address like every time you want to withdraw, but nobody does this, so it's much more convenient to just use the same address. So, yeah, this is just a big problem, and this is something that sign-in payments is trying to tackle, basically. So the way that if I wanted to describe silent payments in a single sentence, I would say that silent payments is trying to counter address reuse with the use of ECDH. So ECDH, elliptic curve Diffie-Hellman, it is a cryptographic scheme that is pretty popular, and it is like a scheme that's two parties that have a public-private key, can sort of without really even interacting with each other, they can form a shared secret together. And this requires private and public key pairs, and as it happens, most Bitcoin transactions tend to use public private keys. So if you think of a normal Bitcoin, a common Bitcoin script is like sending to tap root or sending to like a witness public key hash, you're basically sending to a public key, and when you spend it, you are actually using the private key to spend it. So there's private public keys here. And so the idea of silent payments is that we can exploit this fact, the fact that a lot of transactions on chain are using private public keys to create a new address. So this function you can see here, that is kind of in a nutshell what silent payments is doing. So normally you would kind of send to a public key, which is I call P recipient, but now instead of sending it to that directly, what I'm going to do is I'm going to use Diffie-Hellman to calculate the shared secret, and I'm not going to send to the address directly, but I'm going to tweak the address with the shared secret, and I'm then going to send it to that address. And you know, so This is sort of unique per sender-recipient pair, so that is what creates a voice address we use. Before I continue on, I think I first want to quickly mention that in a silent payment address, we have two different keys, a scan key and a spend key, and these are separated out because we will get into this, but, you know, for a silent payment, you need to do a lot of scanning, and it's useful to have a separate key for this, because maybe you don't want to always have the spend key in memory when you do this. There's a bunch of other reasons for it, too. But that's short of it. So yeah, that was silent payments in a nutshell. I'll just quickly go over how you can actually do a silent payment. So first of all, if you're a sender, you need to do use or spend from an output that is using public keys, or using public-private key pairs, so these are some script types which, again, this is not a very high requirement because these are very popular script types. So you need to have at least one of these in your spending transaction. Then using the private keys from the inputs that you're trying to spend, you sum up the private keys. The reason you sum them up and not just take one at random is because this is slightly more convenient or this is more convenient to do, like, collaborative transactions. So you sum up, you create this A, which is the sum of the private keys. Next you also need an input hash. So the reason here that we take an input hash is because just using the sum of the private keys, it's possible to create transactions reusing the same keys. So like you can imagine if you have if you already have like an address and you spend from that address twice, you can you're kind of reusing the keys, so just taking the creating a secret just from the private keys itself doesn't guarantee uniqueness, but we guarantee this by taking this input hash which is essentially just the out points and then hash, and because out points are related to UTXOs, and UTXOs can, of course, only be spent once. If UTXOs could be spent multiple times, then that would be like a double spending problem. So that is essentially that kind of guarantees that this address that we create is unique. So next we create a shared secret. This is the input hash times the A sum times the B scan, which is the scan key for the recipient that you're trying to send to. And then finally, we calculate what the resulting on-chain output looks like with this formula. So P is you have the shared secret, so you send to the B spend, which in the previous slides would be what you would normally send to, but now we don't just send to the B spend, we also send to a B spend summed up with the hash of the shared secrets multiplied by the generator points and make it a public key. So that is what makes it unique. Then on the receiving side, this is this looks actually very similar to the sending side, that is because, you know, it is actually following the same steps, but now instead of taking you're sort of doing it from the perspective of the receiver, so on the input side you're actually looking at the public keys which is shown with a capital A, so capital A is the sum of the input public keys, and now we have this B scan which is like a small B, so that's the private key for the scan key. So however, the A is the same, the input hash is the same because it follows the same principle, and the shared secret is also essentially the same because this is the Diffie-Hellman scheme. That also means that in step five, the resulting on-chain is calculated, you basically arrive at the same result as the sender would. So that's how a receiver can derive the same address. However, only the receiver is able to spend this address, so you can see this function at the bottom. Of course, the right side, the hash of the two parties know the shared secrets, but only the receiver knows the private key, knows the spending key, so only the receiver is actually able to spend this output. So this is basically how you can do both sending and receiving. In a nutshell, or the way I've just described, it might sound to you like, okay, this seems pretty straightforward, so what is the catch here? Because if it was that easy to solve address reuse, then why haven't we done this like 10 years ago? So the catch here is that this process, especially for the receiver side, is very incompatible, or it looks like it's very incompatible with light clients. So on the sending side, it is relatively straightforward. All of the extra data that you need is, it's already part of the transaction. You need to do this extra, like, calculate the shared secrets, but other than that, it's basically not that much extra unique stuff. However, on the receiving side, there are two problems that you need to solve before you can, you know, find these addresses. So one of them is that you need extra on-chain data. So we have both this input hash, and we have the sum of public keys. This is part of a transaction. Normally, like clients, they basically just have a list of addresses that they're interested in, and they have their own ways of finding, like, if there are any funds on those addresses. So maybe they query an Electrum server, or maybe they use a compact block filter or something. But the point is They kind of know what scripts they're looking for. However, in our case, we don't know what those scripts look like. We have to calculate them. And we need on-chain data for this, or we need this extra piece of data. So we need to be able to provide this to the clients. And also, another very big problem with silent payments is that, and this is kind of a good thing but also a bad thing, is that silent payments outputs, they look like just any other taproot output. They are just sort of indistinguishable from normal taproot payments, which is great for privacy, but it also means if I'm a receiver, I don't actually know if a certain transaction, if I look at it, I don't immediately know if it's a payment that is coming for me. The only way for me to figure that out is by assuming, OK, imagine if this was a payment that comes to me. What would the output script, what would the address look like? So I would have to do this, I have to go through this receiving step, I have to take the input hash, I have to take the sum of the public keys, I have to calculate the shared secrets, then I have to calculate the resulting address, and then I finally I check if the address are in the outputs of the transaction. Now, 99.9% of the time, that is not going to be the case, because most payments are not for you. But that is the only way that a sign-on payment wallet is able to determine if you receive any payments. You just have to brute force basically every single transaction there is. So this creates a huge extra what we call a scanning step. And we need to, like, you know, you can kind of imagine when sign-on payments was first proposed, that this was considered a death sentence, that this seems like it's way too much. However, I think for both of these problems, there are some mitigations. So the first one is actually not that big of a deal. We need some extra bit of on-chain data. We need two things. We need the input hash, and we need the public key, or the sum of the public keys. So this is something that is essentially all public information, Which means that if you want, you can have like some sort of a server that can, for a given block or whatever, can create like an end point that gives this data to you. So this is called a tweak data, or a tweak. This is something that is unique for every transaction, and using this tweak, a recipient is able to calculate the shared secret, because, you know, the shared secret was the tweak and the public key sum and the input hash. So this is just enough for any sign-in payment receiver to create or calculate the actual resulting on-chain address. So that's great. That solves the first problem. Next is The second problem, which is the huge amount of data you have to process, so this is by itself seems insurmountable, but one important aspect that is of relevance here is that, you know, if you're a light client, A lot of UTXOs in Bitcoin, they tend to get spent pretty quickly. So you can kind of imagine if a UTXO has already been spent, or if a transaction has outputs that are all spent, then at that point, none of those outputs are going to have any financial value. So if you just want to check if you have funds on your wallet, then you don't really even need to scan these types of transactions. So just to give kind of an idea of how much data this can, like, basically save, I did some pretty, you know, I wrote like a script that just kind of looks at the UTXOs from like a range. I think I took like the last 20, 000 blocks. I just look at all of the UTXOs, and I looked at how long it takes for these UTXOs to get spent. As it turns out, from my measurements at least, 50 per cent of UTXOs that get created tend to get spent within two days, And, after two months, 95 per cent of UTXOs that get created get spent again. That means that if we're a sign-up payments wallet, and we want to find out if we have funds, if the data that we're scanning is more than two months old, then we can already basically drop 95% of the data. So that is a pretty huge performance saving. And it can basically be considered that sign-in payments would have been completely feasible without this, but with this, it seems like it might be possible, and, of course, seems like it's kind of the second part of this talk, the point of the second part, which is what we have been working on. So all of up until what I've mentioned just now was sort of theorized in the sign-on payments BIP. But it wasn't really like it was sort of theorized that like lines were possible, but it wasn't really like tested out. So this was kind of the reason that we started to work on our project, which we call Dana Wallets. So, yeah, we just initially started it just to see how difficult, how expensive is it actually to create a sign-on payment like client. And eventually we realized pretty early on or pretty quickly, like, OK, this to us seems to be pretty acceptable. So now we kind of want to show it to other people, like, OK, this might actually be possible. And so we kind of came to the realization, like, let's turn it into a proper wallet. Because that's basically the best way to convince people, is to actually show an example of it. And so, yeah, that's how Dana or Dana kind of got formed. Our target use case that we imagined our users to be is to use it for is donations. So donations is a very typical example of every now and then you may receive payments to your address, you know, It's not a lot of data, so you don't want to be sophisticated and run a full note. You just want to check maybe every couple of weeks, maybe every month or two. So not very often. But you also want to make use of this reusability concept that silent payments bring. So We thought that was a good target use case. So we did basically two iterations of Dana Wallet. In the first one, we kind of built out our first iteration was based on two software projects, one of them is ElectroRest, which is an Electro implementation in Rust, and we just slightly modified ElectroRest to have like this tweaks end points, So this tweaks is what I talked about, this minimal amount of data that you need to find outputs. And the other software thing that we use is Nakamoto, which is a big 158 client, So the process for us in this first version was we first get the tweaks from Electoras for a particular block, then we calculate the resulting addresses that may possibly have payments, may possibly have, like, funds on them. Then using at that point we kind of have, like, a list of output scripts. And at that point, it's very similar to a normal wallet would be, which is you have a list of addresses that you're interested in, and you just, in this case, we requested this, we requested like a compact block filter, a bit.58 client filter, and we just checked, okay, is this block interesting to us? If not, we skip it. If it is, we download the block and scan all the transactions. So this was this approach seemed to work, it seems like technically to work, however, we had a lot of issues like which are kind of just like probably a consequence of the fact that we were not that experienced with building for mobile clients, so we had to run a BIP 158 client which is a continuous process and we had to run this in your mobile app. So yeah, this caused a bunch of overheads or a bunch of, yeah, this was just a lot more complicated than we probably needed it to be. So the next thing we did was we switched over to another back end, which is called Blindbit Oracle. So Blindbit Oracle is a project by another person in the silent payment space which is sort of like a minimalist server that you can use to basically, like, as a client, can use to receive and send. So this is actually very similar to the previous approach, except this time. So a blind bit Oracle is kind of like a tweak server plus a BIP158 client, but over HTTP. And because HTTP, this is a lot more much more common procedure in the mobile space to have just to make HTTP requests and responses and process these sorts of responses. This was actually a lot more manageable for us. So this was really nice. The other workflow is essentially it looks very similar to the previous one, so you first get the tweaks. You also query the filter. In this case, the filter, it's not quite a bit.58 filter, it's a slightly modified filter that only looks at tap root outputs, but it works more or less the same. We calculate the output addresses using the tweaks, then we check this filter if there's a match, if there's not a match, okay, this block isn't interesting to us. If there is a match, we then use this other query endpoint that Blindbit has, which is like the UTXOs. So you can basically request the UTXOs that are in a specific block from Blindbit. Again, it's slightly modified to make it more compatible or make it easier for sign-in payment wallets to use, but it's functionally it's very it looks very similar to like a bit 158 line. So, yeah, we loop over these simplified UTXOs and we just add the outputs that are interesting to us if we find them. So one important thing to note here is that the first two steps here, getting the tweaks and getting the filter, those you kind of have to do for every single block, and the third step, which is calculating the output vector, this is the part that is really computationally expensive. So one thing we can do is we can kind of, if we scan block N, we can, while we are processing the tweaks for block N, we can already do web requests for all the blocks that come after it. So that means that basically, you know, networking and computation are sort of done concurrently. So one of these is going to be the bottleneck, and the other one we can kind of do for free if it's on. So yeah, that was basically the iteration that we use right now. Now I want to talk a bit about what are the actual results of what we have. So here I have some measurements that I made. So these are benchmarks for how long it takes to scan a certain amount of blocks, a certain block range. So I kind of just used phones that were lying around, so these may not be the most representative of what people use, but this was sort of a nice range for me. On the left side is a Motorola phone, which is a more cheaper phone. It was like a slightly older phone. And on the right is a more high-end phone, a Pixel 9. And what this shows here is basically the amount of time it took to scan this amount of data. So I think especially the lowest row is probably the most interesting one. So just looking at the Motorola, for 16 months, which is like one and a quarter year, it took the Motorola, the cheap phone, it took it six minutes to scan 16 months' worth of data. I think personally that this is Totally acceptable. This is kind of the point where the technical element sort of drops away, now it's more user opinion, like, what do people think? Do people think that waiting for six minutes is acceptable? Now I will say, like, six minutes or this 16 months is kind of like the most extreme case. This only happens when you do a full wallet recovery probably. Most of the time you don't even need to scan 16 months' worth of data. So I think for a worst case, six minutes is pretty good, but of course, that's kind of not really up to me. It's everyone that uses a wallet, they sort of have to decide if this is worth it for them. But, yeah, I think these results are pretty nice. I will say one caveat is that this was all using a blind bit that was running on my same network, so basically this is more of a benchmark that shows the computational side, because we assume that if a blind bit is running on your local network, all of the network stuff is kind of instant. So this is just to show how long the processing of data looks. So maybe your results may vary, but they always vary, of course, because you can have different hardware, you can have different network connection speeds. So it does give a pretty decent picture, at least, I think, of the processing time. So yeah, I think, oh, yeah, finally, I just wanted to say, okay, now we have kind of a working light client silent payments wallet. Because we now have sort of access to this reusable address, we can finally start to think about other things that we can do with, like, a reusable payment code. So yeah, one of the pretty obvious ones is BIP353. So BIP353 is like this email address-looking format. This is already In use, I think, for example, by Phoenix Wallet, this is pretty popular, but it's also possible, especially with something like payment, it's possible now to also do this on chain. So if you use this BIP353 approach, we can kind of basically create a wallet that just can completely drop showing Bitcoin addresses at all. We can basically create a user experience that is only built around this sort of email address like user experience. So I think that is pretty cool, and there's a bunch of other improvements that you can think of, but obviously that is for another time. I think for now that was basically all we wanted to show, so if any of this sounded interesting to you, We really would like to get feedback on our app. We have only been testing it out mostly between ourselves and some people that we talk to. But if any of this sounded interesting to you, please check it out. We have a website here that you can see for more information. We have an Android repository to download the app. Right now, it's still only on Android, or you have to download the APK. But we kind of want to release it on the Google Play Store and the Apple App Store. So hopefully, we can get to that early next year, but that was it. 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interactive ECDH operations between sender and recipient(s) of a transaction to generate the scriptpubkeys, which means wallet developers need to totally rethink the way a wallet works. Dana is an attempt at a pure silent payment, privacy preserving mobile wallet, and highlight the main challenges and opportunities that wallet developers will encounter working on silent payment.\n\nRecorded at POPOP in Taipei, Taiwan during bitcoin++ sovereignty edition.\nFull agenda at https://btcpp.dev/conf/taipei#agenda\n\nSign up for one of our upcoming events at https://btcpp.dev\nWebsite: https://btcpp.dev/\nX: https://x.com/btcplusplus\nNOSTR: https://iris.to/npub1dwah6u025f2yy9dgwlsndntlfy85vf0t2eze5rdg2mxg99k4mucqxz7c52\n#btcplusplus #devconf #bitcoineducation #bitcoinconf #bitcoindev #bitcoinconference #bitcoin #cypherpunks", + "date": "2026-01-17", + "youtube": { + "description": "Building a pure silent payment mobile wallet: challenges and hindsight - Dana Wallet \n\nSilent Payment is a static payment code scheme that rely on non interactive ECDH operations between sender and recipient(s) of a transaction to generate the scriptpubkeys, which means wallet developers need to totally rethink the way a wallet works. Dana is an attempt at a pure silent payment, privacy preserving mobile wallet, and highlight the main challenges and opportunities that wallet developers will encounter working on silent payment.\n\nRecorded at POPOP in Taipei, Taiwan during bitcoin++ sovereignty edition.\nFull agenda at https://btcpp.dev/conf/taipei#agenda\n\nSign up for one of our upcoming events at https://btcpp.dev\nWebsite: https://btcpp.dev/\nX: https://x.com/btcplusplus\nNOSTR: https://iris.to/npub1dwah6u025f2yy9dgwlsndntlfy85vf0t2eze5rdg2mxg99k4mucqxz7c52\n#btcplusplus #devconf #bitcoineducation #bitcoinconf #bitcoindev #bitcoinconference #bitcoin #cypherpunks", + "tags": [ + "btcplusplus", + "devconf", + "bitcoineducation", + "bitcoinconf", + "bitcoindev", + "bitcoinconference", + "bitcoin", + "cypherpunks", + "niftynei" + ], + "categories": [ + "Entertainment" + ] + }, + "deepgram_output": "deepgram_2026-06-26T080833Z.json" +} \ No newline at end of file From d87eadc44f4f2d569b2f7de9b0cb98e539beeec2 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: "ai-transcriber[bot]" <182107790+ai-transcriber[bot]@users.noreply.github.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2026 08:11:13 +0000 Subject: [PATCH 2/3] ai(transcript): "Design and implementation of Frostsnap the first frost signing device" (bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition) --- .../deepgram_2026-06-26T080948Z.json | 56896 ++++++++++++++++ .../dpe.json | 38096 +++++++++++ .../metadata_2026-06-26T080544Z.json | 31 + 3 files changed, 95023 insertions(+) create mode 100644 bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/design-and-implementation-of-frostsnap-the-first-frost-signing-device/deepgram_2026-06-26T080948Z.json create mode 100644 bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/design-and-implementation-of-frostsnap-the-first-frost-signing-device/dpe.json create mode 100644 bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/design-and-implementation-of-frostsnap-the-first-frost-signing-device/metadata_2026-06-26T080544Z.json diff --git a/bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/design-and-implementation-of-frostsnap-the-first-frost-signing-device/deepgram_2026-06-26T080948Z.json b/bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/design-and-implementation-of-frostsnap-the-first-frost-signing-device/deepgram_2026-06-26T080948Z.json new file mode 100644 index 0000000..912ab1d --- /dev/null +++ b/bitcoinplusplus/sovereignty-edition/design-and-implementation-of-frostsnap-the-first-frost-signing-device/deepgram_2026-06-26T080948Z.json @@ -0,0 +1,56896 @@ +{ + "metadata": { + "transaction_key": "deprecated", + "request_id": "019f02f9-d15f-7091-94b8-fcc5af2fd96d", + "sha256": "bc7243901123e83653d4da55261b0b8595917a0a056603718ec8dbecec44554e", + "created": "2026-06-26T08:09:14.360Z", + "duration": 2391.1704, + "channels": 1, + "models": [ + "2a000f0d-afa1-4f20-8481-94f8bc30b0b2" + ], + "model_info": { + "2a000f0d-afa1-4f20-8481-94f8bc30b0b2": { + "name": "large-whisper", + "version": "2022-12-08.0", + "arch": "whisper" + } + } + }, + "results": { + "channels": [ + { + "alternatives": [ + { + "transcript": "I think digital signatures are really cool. It couldn't get colder than frost, though. So very excited to have one of the cryptographers who was early to understanding frost, I think, do one of the first implementations in Rust, perhaps. He's been working on how to bring this very cool digital signature technology to consumers at Frostnap, and so very excited to have him here today talking about some of the challenges of translating cryptography into the user space. So Give it up to Lloyd Fournier. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. I'm really excited to talk about Frostnap, the design implementation of Frostnap, give a technical talk. I think this is the first technical talk I have given on Frostnap, and I'm really excited to do it. I asked myself what do you guys want to know about, actually? What does the audience want to see? They probably don't want to hear stories, they might, some people might, but I think it would be better if I gave you an autistic stream of consciousness of technical details. That's what I came up with. It's a very technical talk I've got here today. I'm glad you guys didn't have breakfast because I don't think some of you would be able to handle it too well. I think it's fine to call myself a cryptographer as long as it's only semi-serious. Most of the time I actually spend resizing buttons and stuff nowadays, and making things build on Mac. That's probably where I spend most of my time, but I do know I'm a little bit dangerous with cryptography, and that's really what the talk will be about. It's like the tricks we used, we added over the existing cryptography to make it a good UX, basically. UX hacks down to the mathematical level. I'm going to quickly tell you what FROST is if you don't already know. So it's some kind of acronym there. It's a T of N threshold signature scheme. It's a mathematical replacement for multi-sig. I guess you guys are aware You can condition the spending of Bitcoin on signatures under multiple public keys rather than a single public key, so multiple people need to sign, or multiple devices need to sign. Frost is an optimised version of Bitcoin multi-sig. You have, Instead of having multiple keys on chain, you have a single key on chain, but each device or each party holds a different secret share of that key, and any T of the parties, so two, two out of three set up would be able to produce a signature, and that signature is actually indistinguishable from a normal single-sig signature, so it's just a normal signature that goes on chain and a single key, so no-one can even tell that you're using multi-sig. We create BIP 340 signatures, that's taproot signatures, on chain. That looks like it's a normal signature but it's actually a multi-sig. This is how it's evolved, sort of from the research part of it. There was Frost by Kolmo and Goldberg, and there was also Moosig 2 at around the same time. They both came up with the same kind of trick. This was for N of N schemes, and this was for T of N. Moosig 2 was a useful contribution because it had a better security proof, but the frost the Coborn-Globerg also came up with a fixed their original security proof, I would say, in this paper, proving Schnorr assuming Schnorr, and then eventually Chui et al, which also includes some of the Blockstream research people, produced this practical Schnorr threshold signatures paper which is what really our implementation is sort of based on, or at least there is then a specification called the chill DKG specification made by Blockstream Research based on that paper with a few extra tricks added, and then finally we have Frostnap which is based on that and is adding our own tricks. So I've got to briefly, here's where the math starts, we're going to briefly explain Shemitah secret sharing because not everyone is going to be familiar with it but it's really cool. Instead of having multiple public keys on chain, you would instead take a single secret key and you split it up mathematically, so you split it up in a mathematical space. For example, this would be a three out of five, you need three signatures from five keys, you would take this A0 which is your secret key and you would split it up across this parabola here, and every point on the parabola, you can think of it as a secret share. What you do is you take your polynomial, or your parabola, and you evaluate it at different points, and each point you evaluate it is a different secret share, and any three of the points on the parabola lets you redraw the parabola and figure out what A0 is, which is your secret. A0 is the thing with all your bitcoins on it, right? So What are the benefits of splitting up the key in this way? So we have, first of all, and probably the most consequential thing for you as an end user in a personal Bitcoin security situation is you don't have to have this descriptor back up. One very dangerous thing about traditional multi-sig, or legacy multi-sig, as we like to call it, is that you have, if you have a multi-sig, let's say it's a three out of five, you have five public keys on chain, and You have five devices, and each one probably has a seed word back-up, right? You would think that with three of those seed word back-ups, you would be able to get the funds, but actually you can't. If you only have three of the seed word back-ups, you will lose all your money. That's very unfortunate. The problem is you need to know what the other two public keys are to be able to find the funds on chain to be able to spend from it, because the public keys are not in the output, they're not in the address. You need to know how to reveal what is inside that address, and you need everyone else's public keys to do that. So getting three of the backups is not enough, and so we don't have that problem. If you have FrostSnap, if you have three of the backups, and a three out of five, you have all the money. That's all you need. You don't need to know about anything else. That's because you're mathematically splitting up the secret, and so that parabola, you can still produce it and still get the main secret. On-chain efficiency, of course, we've got a single signature, single public key, same cost as a single SIG transaction, so less fees, and the privacy is better because you're not revealing what multi-SIG you're doing. You can also do more funky things we haven't implemented. You can have multiple access structures, two out of three, and a three out of five accessing the same funds. You can even add, for example, you can have a two out of three to start off with, and even add a three out of five later on with different devices without moving the funds on chain. You can also enrol a new device, you've got a two out of three, you could add a fourth one in there, add part of the same access structure. No need to move the funds on chain, no-one can tell you've done it, it's a pure offline operation. This is quite important for businesses if they put out an invoice with an address, like give this much money to this address, and then, while that invoice is out there, they need to make a personnel change, they need to get rid of Steve from the company, now you've got to change the invoice. You've got to call them up, sorry, Steve's left the company now, we're going to change the address for that invoice. With Frost, you can remove Steve without having to change it. So here is key, This is when we go through key generation and show what we did to make things a bit better. Key generation in Frost is everyone is doing a local Shemir secret sharing, so they're all running that parabola sort of thing locally and splitting up a secret to everyone else. Then we sort of just adding them together. This coordinator guy in the middle, he's taking everyone's polynomials, or their coefficients of the polynomial, and the encrypted secret shares that are destined for each of the devices, adding them all together, and then finally giving them to the end devices. There's also this little proof, you need this proof to make sure that device one knows that their contribution was made, was included in the final result, and so then, After adding everything together, you get the aggregated polynomial, and every device is able to decrypt their secret share and check that they've got the right one. This is how it works in Chill DKG. You can imagine how do you do that protocol with wallets? There was these guys called Stacks Wallet who very bravely managed to get an HRF bounty on making a mobile Frost wallet, and they did this all with QR codes, so they did the whole protocol all with QR codes, and it is a very time-consuming task to do every single round of the protocol with QR codes, so registering devices, every device registering their public key, every device message that every device wants to send, have a QR code for that, and then everyone getting the final result have another QR code round for that. It was a very difficult thing to do, so we didn't want to do this in FrostNAP. So what we wanted to actually do was, well, just for a moment, just think about normal multi-sig, you've got to register all your devices and their public keys, into the main wallet, and then you've got to generate the wallet and then export the descriptors, right, back to the devices so they can check the addresses. That's basically, it's still a little bit of work, and with Frost, it would be impossible, or, I mean, very difficult to do this, because of how much time it would take, because there are extra rounds. We really can't do what you do in legacy multisig, so we wanted to come up with a solution, so we came up with the daisy-chaining solution. You take the FrostSnap devices and you plug them into each other, and they all run it live. So they all run several rounds of the protocol all together, and there is no unplugging things out and back in. And so That's our first UX hack to try and get this thing good. Now I'm going to go through a few more that are more cryptographic, more in-depth. One of the really tricky things is this, what you would do in legacy multisig is you would have to check on every single device that they have all the same descriptor, right? So they all get the same addresses, and they're all convinced they're part of the same wallet. Same thing you could say you would have to do it with Frost, but what we wanted to do was come up with a compact way of checking that, not scrolling through very scary things, and not having to check big chunks of data, and checking every little hex byte is the same as the other byte, so we came up with a way of producing randomness during the key generation that allows us to reduce the security check down to only four bytes. So you can just see, you look at the device, you check that is the same. That actually allows you to guarantee that every device was part of the key generation, had its input included, and no-one is trying to hijack it. If it wasn't for this VRF check, this verifiable random function that we used during the certification round of the protocol, you would have a big 32-byte hash that you have to check. So that's how much we care about you. That's how much we care about your eyes. We put in a lot of cryptography just to make that very small check. The other thing we did is generation. So We are the first hardware wallet to do this. All other hardware wallets, I think, you get a USB stick in the mail or something, and you say, generate me the thing that is going to hold my life savings on it, right? It's an interesting behaviour, but it works because we have very good hardware wallet companies in the Bitcoin space, but we don't do that with Frostnap, actually. We don't just let them generate keys. So even if we ship you three malicious hardware wallets, the software on the coordinator, and of course it's all open source, it's going to add its own polynomial to the thing, right? So these guys are all generating polynomials, splitting up shares and sharing them, but the coordinator is going to add his own one also, and that's going to be included and that means that's going to be included in the main public key, this randomness, so these devices are not going to be able to generate a key that is owned by an attacker, whereas otherwise you would easily be able to do that. Now I will go into signing, so key generation, We nailed that, we made a really good signing. Basically our main task is just to make it as good. We just wanted to be the same as legacy multi-sig, you go to different devices, and you sign without having to worry about any of the technical details, right? So the difficult thing is this nonce problem. In Frost, you have to share these things called nonces up front into the which go into each signature. When you're doing single-sig or legacy multi-sig, each device is doing that, but they're handling it behind the scenes, you don't have to worry about it whatsoever. They generate the nonces at the time of signing, but because all these devices are sharing a single signature on chain, you actually have to generate these nonces together, and this is one of the most difficult things to design around. The coordinator is aggregating them, and there's the real challenge, the security challenge is that the devices must never reuse the nonces. When I talk to people about Frost, they're often like, no, man, you can't do that, the nonce management thing is too difficult a problem to make this thing secure. If my thing accidentally, or if an attacker is able to get me to reuse the nonce, then all my money is gone. At that point, it's a big risk. And indeed, It is a little bit of a risk, but we can address it. So just imagine this scenario. So device is signed, it's used a nonce, it's never allowed to use that nonce again. It's signed a thing, it sends the signature, but then it loses power. The device doesn't know if the coordinator received the signature. Maybe it lost power while it was transmitting the signature. The coordinator, even if it did receive it, could lie that it has not received it. So what we really want is that if the coordinator asks for the signature again, if it's the same message, and it's the same nonsense, just return the signature that has already been produced, so save it. But if it's a different message and the same nonsense, reject it, and guarantee you can never use any nonces you've already used. In the end, this is not like a deep cryptography trick, it's just shown it's not so hard to do this. You can forget about data with the right hardware. This is all you have to do, is you take the state at the beginning as you're at nonce N, you get asked a sign, you take these two slots of flash memory, and you write the next N plus one into the one slot and write the signature. Now you've got the signature. If you've lost power in this state, you return the signature, right, because you've got your state n plus 1, you return what is slot B, but first you write it to A, and now A and B have been fully moved forward to the next state and then you return the signature. So really it's not so complicated to overcome this problem. Once you've gone to N plus one, and both things are N plus one, N is deleted from the universe, so you can never produce that old nonce ever again. You only ever return the signature once you get to that state. So with NorFlash, which is what you have on embedded devices usually, erasing is a real erase. It's definitely gone after that, there's no coming back. So We can actually guarantee what we need to guarantee here, and you don't have to worry about nonces. The next thing we've done is something that other hardware wallets have done, which is to do anti-XFIL, which is the signing equivalent of what we did in keygen. We get the coordinator to get its nonces from the devices, the nonces they're going to use, but then it adds its own random nonce to it. Then when it goes out to sign, it's got this RC from the coordinator in there, and so the devices, no matter what they try and do, they cannot contrive the nonce. Contriving the nonce means having R1 and R3 be very special, that those two devices are working together to leak their secrets and leak the money on chain which is a very dangerous thing, a very dangerous attack, and there is this attack called darkskippy.com that shows how a device can, in pretty much a single transaction, leak a full 12-word seed phrase just by messing around with those nonces, right? So we don't trust the devices to sign, other hardware worlds do, they're just like let's let this device produce the nonce and put the signature on chain. We do not let them do that, and we don't let them generate keys by themselves easier, so we don't actually let the device do any trusted operation, anything that they're doing that involves randomness, where they're meant to generate randomness properly, we do not let them generate it by itself. We provably add in our own randomness, and so we have this where the first hardware war, there's not a trusted third party slogan. Terms and conditions apply to that, but it's roughly true, and I think it is an important fact that we don't allow devices to generate randomness by themselves, there's no reason to do it. There are some engineering reasons. I wonder if anyone knows, but the main reason why it would be hard for single SIG things to do this or other hardware to do this that are not frost-based, is that you can do it, and the nonce stuff is done by some other hardware wallets, but the key generation one is very tricky if you want to use BIP39 seed phrases. BIP39 seed phrases gets in the way of it because it's a system where an individual device has to do that hashing of the entropy, and, since that hashing is not a homomorphic function, it's very difficult to let other people disrupt what that device wants to do. It has to be trusted to do it by itself. Since we're in Frost and we're all doing key generation and all these things are being shared already, it becomes very easy for us to take this coordinator and disrupt any attacks, because the coordinator is already having this stuff pass through it anyway. So back-up and recovery. So when we started this project, I didn't think all that much about this. It turns out that making a hardware wallet and a Bitcoin security sovereignty system is like 80 per cent at least backups and recovery, and that's where I spent most of my time working on backups and recovery, and not cryptography. So We've done a good job. At the beginning, I thought we could get away with not having backups in recovery because you've got multiple devices, two out of three, or two out of four, and you've got redundant devices, so if one breaks, you've got extra devices, but then I realised that no-one would buy that at all because you could have four devices fail, I know people who have had a whole batch of devices fail, and so you do actually need backups, unfortunately, and so we did generate and craft a backup system That we're quite happy with in the end. So in the end it actually just is some words. They're BIP39 words with a number on the front. That number is the share index, like where it was evaluated on the polynomial, right? So it could be 1, 2, 3, whatever, and then you've got 24 words which has the secret share, so that's the evaluation of the polynomial, plus the polynomial checksum, I will explain what that is soon, and then this 25th word which is just the checksum over all the 24 words. So this polynomial checksum is a weird one, it's not really straightforward about what that is, but do you know when you recover even legacy multi-sig, there is this check that I've already mentioned, you have to kind of check that after you've loaded all the seed words into each device that you've got the right descriptor on each device, right? They all have agreement, because if you try to check addresses, you need to make sure that that device really is in the right multi-sig with all those other devices. If not, it could be in a multi-sig, but it could be in a multi-sig majority controlled by an attacker. You don't know what that laptop you're plugging into is doing, or what it's exporting to those devices unless you check it against the other devices. We figured that this is actually a really difficult thing to explain to users, and to get them to do it, and so we actually, and in Frost Snap, it's even more difficult to see that that's what you need to do. You need to somehow check an address on every device to make sure that the next thing you do is generate a receive address after recovering that it is actually part of the wallet, and not just something that the coordinator, your phone or your laptop, is lying to the device about. So we put this little 8-bit checksum in here just to sort of say, just because we really didn't know how much we care about this kind of thing. We don't want you to go around and having to do all these manual check steps. It's a very weak attack. This is how it works. You restore everything from backup. The malicious coordinator provides the wrong public key, but it says you're a secret share as part of this public key. The device displays the attacker-controlled addresses because that's the next thing you do is try to receive funds, and then those funds are actually controlled by an attacker. So what we do is We put this 8-bit checksum inside the seed words which says, listen, you've got a 0.5 per cent chance of pulling this kind of attack off which probably means it's non-economical. Just a little thing we threw in there. And so with backups, the reason we chose this approach, what our approach is, is that you're just backing up the secret chairs, is because out of all of them, it seems like the best one. There are other things you can do. You can have a cloud backup thing which stores the whole key generation, and that's actually what the chill DKG spec gives you as a backup system. This is pretty much bringing back the descriptor back-ups which we didn't want to do, we didn't want to have to have some digital back-up, we just wanted the seed words to be the thing. We could have added separate seed word access structures, so In other words, you have your main funds on your devices, and then you have different pieces of paper for backups. They're not backups of the devices, they're different backup access structures. I have a two out of three for my devices, but I have a three out of five for my paper backups and I give them out to different people. We thought this might be very confusing for users, though. There's lots of difficult questions about how you display those paper backups. If you're inheriting money, or you're trying to recover money, and You don't have devices to put the backups on, it's just like pieces of paper. You're left in a tricky situation. In the end, each device has a backup of the secret that's on it. It's as simple as that. We used BIP39 words because people can't record BEC32 correctly. That's the encoding of addresses, and I thought at the beginning that BEC32 would be the cool modern way to do this, but in the end, many people write fives like Ss, and it's totally indistinguishable from each other, and many other letters. Some people write numbers that look like there's other numbers, you know? Some people write letters that look like other letters. It's not really possible, the words is really a good mental checksum. And Our main goal with this thing is to be able to easily reproduce the code, so Frost has all this stuff, magic stuff going into it, but the backup and recovery system is actually relatively simple. We are doing the Shamir secret sharing, but you can get a Shamir code in Python very easily, so you can describe to an LLM a couple of sentences and it will reproduce the code needed to take the backups and get the money off them. So this is I think my final trick for today. It was quite a nice trick that I came up with, and this is the problem of not knowing whether backups are related to each other. You've got all these different backups, and you don't know if they fit together, right? This could have been some backup you made for a different key, and now you've got it, and how do you know it's related to this key? You could put some extra check sum stuff, some labels on the words, or in the words, or something to make sure this is what they're related, but that would mean extra words, and we don't want people to have to say, we don't say people like write down 30 words, right? 25 we can get away with maybe, but 30 is going to be pushing it. We use the mathematical structure of the Shemir secret sharing, the polynomial that shares it, we actually embed and grind a fingerprint into the polynomial. That means that there's a very small subset of polynomials when you take the secret shares and you interpolate them into the polynomial, there's a small subset of polynomials that actually are valid frost snap polynomials, so you will know when you get the shares together whether they were actually together. So we are actually part of the same case. This is what it looks like in the UX. You get these three, you load in these three back-ups, and the system detects actually the one and three are part of the same wallet, but this one, four, with Greg's one, was not part of the same wallet. We can automatically remove that for you, so your task when you're recovering the funds is just to get the seed word backups and load them in, or devices, and just load them in as many as you have, as many as you want, and it will automatically mathematically figure out which ones were part of the same wallet and which ones were not part of the same wallet. In the end, with all these tricks, what do we have? We've got a sovereign multi-sig wallet that recovers from a threshold of devices and or paper backups. It can be restored by non-technical family members, single on-chain signature and privacy same as single SIG. Most of the effort goes into hiding the complexity so we can at least match the UX of traditional multi-SIG, but on top of that, we get some big wins, so no descriptor back-ups, a four-byte security check, and not a trusted third party. So we're pretty happy with that for our first product, And we've got more things coming on the way, but that is it. And if there is time, I'll take questions, but otherwise I can get out of here. Awesome. Why can't we do 12 words instead of 24 words? Yeah, it's something I've really tried to mathematically produce 12 words in between button resizings and stuff. It can't be done. Unfortunately, it simply cannot be done. It encodes a secret key, right? These scalers, these shares, Shamir's shares are 32 bytes, and that is basically what you get with 24 words, is the ability to encode 32 bytes. I've tried to reduce it down, I've tried to come up with tricks, the tricks don't work. Nothing I can squeeze. There's nothing I can squeeze. I will be very impassed if anyone can, you know, squeeze it out so you have a three out of five, and instead of having 24 words, you have 24 divided by three words, so you have totally, when you get them together, it's just 24 words in total. That would be so amazing. The backup and recovery stuff is something I poured over a lot of time and effort in and was not able to get that advantage. So you said something about not liking descriptor backups, but what if I wanted to use Frost in a descriptor? I think you can back up descriptor. Thing is, what you want to be able to do is reproduce the whole descriptor just from the seed words, right? So, if I can reproduce the... If I wanted to do some funny mini script thing where I have multiple different Frost keys inside a mini script, because why not? Yeah, I think it's fine. You can do that. But think about how do you reproduce each element of that descriptor, right? The key thing we are solving is that you have a three out of five, right? In that traditional descriptor, you would be like, I'm going to reproduce all five of those keys. For Frost, you only reproduce three of them, any three of them. You're shrinking what you need to reproduce, like, hopefully, like, the user's key is like some kind of multi-sig or something, and they just need to reproduce the threshold number, then all the other keys, like the static service provider key or whatever, can all be just reproduced by the software, and So they really don't need to actually have a descriptor backup. On the same topic, basically what you're doing is an equivalent of like Which one is it like? BIP42 that's like, you know kind of brute-forcing with just the Which is the the backups always just a mnemonic you can brute-force basically what the wallet will look like. But this is actually the problem for wallets like us using descriptors, because users have been told basically they just need to keep their mnemonic, and then somehow their wallet will figure out where the coins are. And then they don't back up descriptors. So if someone wanted to use again a Frost let's say in early or whatever advanced wallet and they're like oh yeah but I read on the Frost website that I don't need a backup of my descriptor they will lose funds. So Why would they lose funds? Because if they don't have the descriptor of a wallet using Frost but not just Frost or not assuming the equivalent of a single SIG being brute-forced by having the right derivation path. If they don't back up the specificities of their wallet, they will never find the funds again. That's true, but I would try and design it so the specificities can somehow be reproduced or be grinded in. So if it's a service provider's key, then you can figure out which service provider it is. If it's like, what kind of keys would you use in a Liana system that you couldn't reproduce? Right. So let's say I have a business. So between the team that is going to co-sign as would be a multi-sig today, I use a frost setup. Then after an inactivity of three months, we have the board of directors keys in a frost setup. Then after one year, we have a two of three frost setup of three different service provider that can be there as a disaster recovery. Do you want to brute force every single kind of setup like this? Should it be enforced in a template? Because we don't want that. We want to leave the user define exactly what they want for their needs and not have any basic templates, like two of three or three of five. Yeah, I mean, I would still hope that in such board of directors situation, like the board of direct, like somehow one is going to have that backup somehow natively. Because the board of directors have the key already. They can already just spend it. And so you could just, if worse comes to worse, you don't need that. So I would still try and avoid, for individual users, try and avoid cloud backup kind of things, if you can. If it's not in your setting, it may not be appropriate. But I think we're talking about mostly personal Bitcoin security here. This is like people, someone's passed away, they've been incapacitated, and now what steps do I have to do to reproduce the thing? And now that situation is where you really want to optimize for that. I think there are a lot of other situations where you don't need to optimize for that thing. So yeah, I think that's... I think personal Bitcoin security, you should be able to grind it out. That's what I hope. Yeah. Can I ask another question? Sounds like we have our first descriptor debate lined up for you later tonight. OK. I don't know. Stage freeze stuff. OK. Hi Lloyd. What are the downsides of Frostnap in your opinion compared to a traditional 2 of 3 multi-sig or 3 of 5 or something else? Yes, good question. I did have slides on this and I was like, ah, delete it. Downside's not fun. But glad you asked the question. So they usually happen in the signing part. So the signing bit is you, one thing is I didn't mention but I should, is you have to choose which signers you're going to use before, when you start signing. So it's like, I'm going to sign with Alice and Bob, or Alice and Carol, or Bob and Carol. So when you start creating the signature, you have to choose which ones it's going to be. You can't be like, oh, I go to Alice's house, and I was going to sign with Bob, but now I want to change my mind, I want to do Carol, you have to start again. That's one. Then the other one is actually this nonces stuff, we do have a limit on the number of inputs you can sign at once, so I think right now we have about 30, because I do 30 inputs at once, but there is some limit, right? The coordinator only has some amount of nonces. We could bump the number up to 50, it just makes things a bit slower, 100, whatever, just makes things a bit slower, but there is some limit on it, yes. Also you don't know who signed, that's maybe another one, you can't figure out who it was that actually made the transaction. So if you're in an organisation, maybe the three out of five on-chain, you can see all the public keys, you can see which public key is signed, and therefore which people made this decision, whereas Frost, you cannot, it's a single public key, single signature, you can't detect who it was in the organisation that authorised that transaction, just from the on-chain data. Is it possible to sign a hardware sign remotely? Or do the signers need to be physically in the same location? No, they don't need to be physically in the same location, you can definitely leave the FrostNaps in different locations and sign them one by one, leaving each one, but then can you do it on the internet basically, right? Yeah, yes you can. We've done proof of concepts. I don't know, it might be something to do in the Hackathon, Nick, we don't know. There's a workshop this afternoon, we'll be doing it, and that will be in the talk slash workshop stage of the building. That starts at 1 o'clock, I think. After lunch. All right. Cool. Thank you, Lloyd. Give a big round of applause for Lloyd and Frostad. Alex. Cool. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 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FROST, the threshold multisignature scheme with applications to Bitcoin, is no different. Lloyd will reveal the tricks the Frostsnap team used to exploit FROST while hiding (most of) the complexity from the user.\n\nRecorded at POPOP in Taipei, Taiwan during bitcoin++ sovereignty edition.\nFull agenda at https://btcpp.dev/conf/taipei#agenda\n\nSign up for one of our upcoming events at https://btcpp.dev\nWebsite: https://btcpp.dev/\nX: https://x.com/btcplusplus\nNOSTR: https://iris.to/npub1dwah6u025f2yy9dgwlsndntlfy85vf0t2eze5rdg2mxg99k4mucqxz7c52\n#btcplusplus #devconf #bitcoineducation #bitcoinconf #bitcoindev #bitcoinconference #bitcoin #cypherpunks", + "date": "2026-01-13", + "youtube": { + "description": "Design and implementation of Frostsnap, the first FROST signing device - Lloyd Fournier\n\nYou've got to be very careful applying a new cryptographic scheme to an existing problem because it's so easy to make things worse. 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Okay, so silent payments are pretty cool. We're not going to talk about that. In fact, there's already a BIP, BIP 352 for silent payments. What this talk is about is about the app output descriptor format. Specifically, the BIP proposal for adding an output descriptor format. Okay, so this is the BIP. It's called Add SP Output Descriptor Format for BIP 352, which is the BIP number for silent payments. How many of you have heard about this proposal for output descriptors. This is new, right? This is new for most people. Okay, cool. Great. So, okay. So, the specification is pretty short. It says we're going to add a new top-level script expression as defined as SP. And then it also adds two new things called key expressions. We're going to learn about these in a second. They're new key expression types. One is called SP scan and the other is called SP spend. So we're going to have two new ways of expressing a particular key. The difference between them is that one has a private key encoded in it and a public key encoded in it. The other one, SP spend, has two private keys encoded in it. And I'll show you what this looks like in a second. So don't worry if this isn't exactly understandable. Okay, so you're like, okay, what's the difference between SP scan and SP spend? SP scan is for watch-only wallets, Because it has a public key part of it in it. And then SP spend as a key encoding is going to have full wallets because it has two private keys. So basically if someone sends you, so The key idea with a key expression is that it's like, okay, here is key material. This will either let you identify coins that have been locked up to this particular information, or it will let you both identify them and also spend them. But I'll get into this a little more explicitly. Okay, so let's just go back to like, okay, what are we talking about? We're talking about this SP thing. So SP is short for silent payments. So basically when you have a descriptor, what a descriptor, what the whole point of having an output descriptor is that it's like here's a description of what an out point in Bitcoin might look like on chain and it's a way that if you have this description of what an out point or output might look like you're then able to go and find them across all of the out points that exist in Bitcoin currently. Both past ones that have been spent and ones that are eligible to be spent, to spend. And the whole goal of this is that your wallet will be able to identify coins that you're able, interested, they're either interested in keeping track of when they're spent versus not, or, and maybe additionally, able to spend those outputs, if that makes sense. So we basically need a way of writing down, these are outputs that I'm interested in, and here's information that you would need in order to be able to spend them in some cases. OK, so we're going to write this as kind of like it's very, for whatever reason, all output descriptors look like function definitions. So this one is SP, so it's like, OK, for a silent payment, here's some information. So the first thing that we're going to put inside of this kind of set of information about a silent payment output is something called a key expression. How many of you have seen XPUBs before? So, XPUB is kind of a traditional or classic key expression. It gives you information to be able to find not only one output, but a series of outputs that have been spent to that particular output descriptor, to that particular XPUB, right? XPUBs have this property where you can spend multiple ones of them, and they have a chain code included in it, etc., etc. XPUBs are not valid key expressions for this SP descriptor. Instead, Craig invents two new ways of encoding information about keys. In order to put a key expression inside of this SP thing, and this is part of the spec, which I could pull up to show you, but that's okay. So it must be a silent payment key expression, which he defines two, which we kind of just looked at. One is this SP scan, and the other is SP spend. So these are actually gonna be long series of information, a lot like an XPUB is. XPUBs can be quite long. They're encoded in batch 32. I don't really care about the encoding. All I care about is what information is inside of them. So what exactly goes in this dot, dot, dot portion of a key expression for a silent payment? For, okay, so this is from the BIP proposal that Craig wrote. He's got SP scan and SP spend. So actually, he kind of then defines the data part. It starts with the character Q, because that's V0. And then there's a payload in each of them. I'm not going to look at the actual bit, but I'm just going to kind of explain what's in them. So for SP scan, the first kind of piece of information that you're going to have in this fetch 32 string is a private key. This is going to be something called the scan key. For silent payments, there's basically two keys involved in each one. One is a scan key That's what allows you to go through every single out point and figure out whether or not it belongs to your wallet You actually need two pieces of information though You need the scan key and then you need oh and the scan key since it's a private key all private key material in Bitcoin is 32 bytes of random data, so it's just a number, and this is no different, so you're going to have a 32 byte piece of information, which is a private key, and that's gonna be your scan key, and then there's gonna be a second key inside of this basically key expression, and for the scan type of it, it's actually gonna be a public key. This is gonna be our spend key. So spend key basically is whether or not you're able to move the funds that are locked up to that out point. We just have the public key and the SP scan type of key description. So this is public key here. It's gonna be 33 bytes because if you're familiar with how public keys in elliptic curve encryption work, you'll know that they're actually points. It's x, y, and we put them in the compressed form. So it's always 33 bytes long. That's because it's an X coordinate plus a parity description for which Y you pick. If you're not familiar with private and public keys, there's a great base 58 class all about cryptography up on Udemy. So I encourage you to go check that out where we explain exactly how private and public keys work for elliptic curves. But yeah, so for SP scan, you're gonna have, again, two kind of pieces of information encoded into a batch 32 description. One of them is gonna be a private key, One of them's gonna be a public key. Again, this first private key lets you scan for information about silent payments. And the second one is whether or not I, the person who's holding this SP scan thing, can spend it. Again, So again, if you go back to the BIP that Craig Raw came out with, he had two kinds of key expression types that he defined. One was scan, which we just walked through. The second one was the spend, so SP spend. And instead of having a public key for the second piece of information, it's now actually going to be the private key for the spend key. So basically if someone sends you an SP spend thing, this has all the information you need to spend any Bitcoin that gets sent to a silent payment that's associated to that public key. That makes sense? I'm not gonna get into exactly what the public keys are for this. That's like kind of inside of the silent payment specification, which this talk is not about. But again, so that's two private keys. So if you have an SP spend, you can spend any Bitcoin that anyone has sent to that particular silent payment. If you have SP scan, okay, so SP spend means I can spend any money that gets sent to this. SP scan means I can only see any money that gets sent to it. I can't actually spend it. Seems pretty simple, right? Okay, so we have scan, we have spend. That's the first part. Okay, so we're kind of defining a silent payment. The first part is like, here's all the data that you need in order to be identified, these out points on chain, and optionally spend them if I provide the secret key for it. Craig also defines two additional pieces of information that you can optionally add. This actually might be like one critique I have, but that's okay. One is he calls them the birthday, and then he calls them a set of labels. So let's get into what this says. Birthday. So A birthday is a description of when you started sending Bitcoin to the silent payment address, if that makes sense. This is going to be a block height. In this case, for example, it would just look like a number, like the block 840, 000. So basically this is a way, whenever you're making a silent payment address, one of the more complicated and complex pieces of silent payments is that it requires a decent amount of computation using that spend key and that scan key that you identified in the key expression. There's a lot of computation that goes into scanning every out point and doing ECDSA, like an ECDH, so an elliptic curve Diffie-Hellman calculation for every single out point to check if basically you're able to spend it. So that's kind of work that's outside of the descriptor and you can use the information in the key expression. In order to cut down on the amount of work that your wallet has to do to identify silent payment out points that belong to your wallet, Craig is suggesting in the BIP for the descriptor that you can optionally annotate it with a block height from which to begin scanning. So basically by having a birth, that's why they call it a birth date, you're like, okay, I know that I didn't generate the silent payment key set until block 840, 000. So whenever my wallet is going to start scanning for any potential out points that match the silent payment descriptor, I will only start at the birth date that's included in the descriptor. So it's basically a way of cutting down on the amount of work that a wallet might need to do by including a birth date. I believe it's optional. You could just include a key expression, and That would be a valid output descriptor. Or you can add a birth date like that. So just as an example, this would be a valid output descriptor according to the BIP that Craig is proposing. So you would have your key material that gives you all the information you need to find it. And then you would have a birth date. So it's saying, don't start scanning for these outpoints until this block and after. So that's birth date. I have a lot of time. That's fine. I'm not going to use it all. OK. So then the last piece of this is another optional thing that you can add, and these are called labels. I didn't know what a label is. I have to be honest, I had not looked into what silent payments are, really, until I told Craig that I would present his descriptor bit for him. So I was like, great. I have to figure out what a label is. Is there anyone here who knows what a payment, silent payment label is? Same. OK. So in order to figure out what this is, we have to go to the actual BIP that defines silent payments, which is BIP 352. So I did the find for you by doing control find. I found this whole section on labels. Check that out. They define what a label is. Okay, let's focus on the important pieces, which is this piece right here. Bob may wish to differentiate incoming payments. So the idea with silent payments is that you basically have two kind of private numbers. You have a scan key, which is private, and you have a spend key, which is another private thing. If I give you the scan key and the public key version of my spend key, anyone can find it. If I give you the scan key, which is always private, and the private spend key, then you can spend my money. But generally, let's say that I want to give one to my friend Janet, and I want to give one to myself, so when I send myself money, and I want to know when Janet is sending me money to my silent payment address versus when me, Nifty, is sending myself money to my private, to my silent payment address, right? In the spec, they say you might just come up with two different ones, so your wallet might have two different silent payment things, but that becomes computationally intensive, is what they say. So the way to get around that is this concept of a label. I'm not gonna go into how the labels work, but basically, again, the idea is you wanna determine the source of an incoming payment. Because they deal with a silent payment address is that you could post it on your website, but you could have one on your website, maybe one on your GitHub, another one on your Twitter profile, and using the labels you could have give each of them a different label. So your wallet would be able to pick up all of them, but any time a payment came in, you would know, oh, someone paid me from my Twitter, or oh, someone paid me from my GitHub. Like, you'd know where they found your silent payment address from because of the label that you gave it when you put it out there. I don't know how wide wallet's label support is across different silent payment wallets, but this is part of the specification. So in theory, you can do it, which is why the descriptor needs to be able to talk about what labels you've put out there and for people to see. So if this was me defining it, a label might look like, okay, I gave this to Janet, so I've labeled this particular SP to Janet, or it would say, okay, this is Nifty, I sent it to Nifty, that's the label. So there could be multiple versions of the same silent payment information using the same scan key and the same spend key. But you're able to track who's sending you money. The thing is that you can't actually put names in it. Labels as per the silent payment spec is an integer M. So instead of saying Nifty and Janet, I just can put the numbers 1, 2, 10, 21. And so then somewhere else, you'll have to map. Like, OK, label 21 means Nifty. Label 10 means my friend, Jana. But that's not part of the specification. That would be something you'd have to add on top of it, if that makes sense. So whenever you're describing, okay, silent payments can be made to this key. Again, a key is a scan key and a spend key. Starting at this birth date, and then here's all the different labels that I've assigned to this particular set of silent payment addresses. So for me, it would be 11021. So altogether, this is what a silent payment descriptor would look like as proposed by Craig. Again, this is not final. This is just a proposal. So this is a full one that has both a key expression, a birth date, and then a series of labels would look like. I haven't gone and looked at the spec, but one of the questions I have for Craig is whether or not the birth date's optional. Like, could I leave the birth date out but include... I don't know if there's a way in his spec that I could leave the birthdate out but also include labels, if that makes sense. I think if you include labels, you also have to include a birthdate. So that would be one piece of feedback I would have for Craig about this in particular. But yeah, that's kind of the descriptor set, or at least that's the definition as Craig has put it out there. It's kind of fun to walk through. I feel like I kind of learned a lot about the pieces of what goes into a silent payment just by walking through the descriptor set. And then this is from Craig's proposal. So there's three things that you put in the silent description or the silent payment descriptor. First is the key expression that we talked about. The second is a birthday or a positive integer representing a block height, which is the second argument. And then zero or more label integers, which is the main argument, where each label is a positive integer. Again, it looks like this. Cool. Okay. Great. Okay, so that's his proposal. You can find it on the BIPS repo at 2047. So this is his whole thing. Again, thanks, Craig, for coming up with this. This is a, I think it's an important piece of being able to communicate about what silent payments you're expecting between different wallets. So having an output descriptor that defines a silent payment address or a silent payment type would let you port them between different wallets much more easily so you could import it into BlueWallet or Sparrow or Bitcoin cores, descriptors, et cetera. So having a common language to talk about this information is really important. And again, all of this is kind of based on how silent payments work, which we did not go into. If you're interested in more information about what exactly is in a silent payment and how the ECDH works, how they're actually using the scan key and the spend key to be able to identify outpoints from some data that's on chain. I suggest you look at BIP 352. I've got lots of time, but wrapping up. Just a reminder, I'm Nifty. I also go by NiftyNai. You can find me on the internet. I haven't been posting on socials much, but I'm up there occasionally. I run Base58, which is a school of engineering based on the Bitcoin standard. I'm currently reworking a lot of our online curriculum, but our Udemy classes are still up there. So if you wanna learn more about classic elliptic curves, we've got some pretty good Udemy classes. We also have a good class on how transactions in Bitcoin work, if you wanna just learn more about the transaction format, et cetera. But working on trying to relaunch for next year. Hopefully that happens soon. Yeah, I also run Bitcoin++. Thanks for coming to our first ever sovereignty edition in Taipei. We have about eight more minutes. If anyone has any questions, happy to hear them. Thanks, Divti. Might be out of scope, but do you know if there's any plan to be able to derive the scan private key from the spend private key, like deterministically? Yeah, that's a great question. I think they have to stay separate. And I can pull up, I mean, if you want to be, let me see if I can find the, I don't have a link to the BIP, do I? BIP, that would be handy. BIP 352, there it is, that's this one. Is there a way to full screen this? There's gotta be a way to full screen this. There we go, does that work? Ta-da, kind of. Okay, so. Okay, so this is the silent payments bit, which I have not completely read. I shouldn't admit that on camera. It's OK. So if you dig into the math of how these work, you want them to be separate. So you could use them. They could be the same thing. And in fact, the original proposal, if you look at the simple case, this integer A, I think, discovers, no, that's not it. Okay, so in the original, kind of the simplest case of private keyments. There's this public key B. So this is kind of the piece that belongs to what you're defining in the silent payment descriptor is B. So here they say public key B. Public key B would have little case B, which is the private key to the public key. You could, this is the absolute simplest description of these keys, you could just have a single key that would allow you both to scan, you would use it both for scanning and spending, if that makes sense. So it's the same. That is an undesirable property if you want to have a watch-only wallet. So further down in the specification, they actually define a spend and scan key as separate items. So they update that original. So this is like the original extremely simple equation that they use to generate public keys to send Bitcoin to from a silent payment address. You can make it more complicated in the case that you also want it to, if you want to separate out the key that lets you identify the outpoints from the key that lets you spend the outpoints. So now you need two keys. One is the key that lets you identify them and the other is a key that lets you actually spend them. In this case, it updates basically the kind of compare these sort of hard to do. So in the original equation, no, that's not. Hang on. Sorry. In the simple case, your spend key basically is here. So this component of the equation is what lets you spend the Bitcoin. You make a hash, which this is like, this is basically the Schnorr signing algorithm. It usually has, I forget what this is called, I think this is called the commitment or the challenge, where you have a hash that you're multiplying times G. And so it also gets kind of hashed in here. The biggest difference when you have a spend and a scan key is that now you have your spend key is still what's being added at the front. So that's what lets you spend it. Does that make sense? That's like your secret key that if anyone has a secret to that, they can spend it. And instead of including your spend key in the hash, you're now including a separate key, which is the scan key, if that makes sense. So basically you kind of have two different keys. The scanning key gets added to the hash, but because it's hashed in, it doesn't have any value in terms of unlocking the funds, It just helps you identify them. And then the piece that actually lets you spend the money is this first component, and so they're separate. So if you want to look for them, you must know what the input to the hash was. One of those components now becomes the public side of the scan key. I don't know why you need to know the private. I think, yeah, and they kind of have this thing in here where you can detect it by, you need the hash of the, oh, it's a multiplier, that's why. Basically, you need the private piece of the scan key in order to identify them, though. So you can send them to, so basically, you can send Bitcoin to this by knowing just the public key of the scan key and the public key of the spend key. You can identify them by knowing the private side of the scan key is why in the output descriptor definition, We had SP scan and SP spend. Both of those required the private side of the scan key. And that's because without that, you can't actually identify them. And this is why. This is the math. Cool. Sorry, does that answer your question? That was a longer. Yes. Do you have a backup PD? So you can use backup for the scan and PD? Yes. Ideally, yeah, probably. But you wouldn't want to, if you have the spine key and you're deriving the scan key, yeah, this is beyond my pay grade at this point. But yeah, you're right. If you had a way of deriving the scan key from the spine key, then you wouldn't need to encode both of them in the descriptor, right? Because there would be, you would need to communicate that, it would be implicit. So maybe that's something to contribute back to the descriptors back, yeah. Yeah. So I just have a comment. You asked a question for Craig about optional birthday. So since labels are numbers, probably it can't be. There's no way to distinguish whether it's a label or a birthdate. You're saying with making, so basically my question was like, could we make the birth date optional and also include labels, right? And I think you're right, because it's all the same type. I don't know, something to think about. I don't think leaving birth dates out is necessarily desirable. But, cool. Any other questions? We've got like another minute and a half. This is the whole specification for silent payments. Fun fact, silent payments require Schnorr, so they wouldn't be possible without Taproot. For those of you who know much about the upgrade path on their cryptography stuff, we added Schnorr with Taproot. I don't think you can't do the math that they're doing to make and have this all work prior to Taproot outputs, so silent payments must be taproot outputs. It's kind of cool. Anything else? Any other questions? Okay. I will leave the floor a minute early. Thank you for coming. Great. 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